Comments on: Was Clemente Really Slighted by MVP Voters in 1960? http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:40:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: gdh http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-19930 gdh Sun, 14 Nov 2010 02:56:55 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-19930 I was just watching the PBS show about Roberto and the part about him being snubbed in 1960. If finishing in 5th place in the voting instead of 8th is being snubbed, then I feel he was. I wouldn't have had him finishing any higher than that, behind Mays, Banks, Boyer and Law.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('19930','gdh'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('19930','gdh','I was just watching the PBS show about Roberto and the part about him being snubbed in 1960. If finishing in 5th place in the voting instead of 8th is being snubbed, then I feel he was. I wouldn\'t have had him finishing any higher than that, behind Mays, Banks, Boyer and Law.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> I was just watching the PBS show about Roberto and the part about him being snubbed in 1960. If finishing in 5th place in the voting instead of 8th is being snubbed, then I feel he was. I wouldn’t have had him finishing any higher than that, behind Mays, Banks, Boyer and Law.
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]]> By: The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five — sudden victory | ShyBarbarian.com – Political Viewpoints http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-19581 The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five — sudden victory | ShyBarbarian.com – Political Viewpoints Tue, 19 Oct 2010 04:55:18 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-19581 [...] MVP balloting, while Mazeroski received no votes. But, all things considered, Maz probably played just about as well as they did in 1960, and just about as well as Roberto [...]<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('19581','The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five — sudden victory | ShyBarbarian.com – Political Viewpoints'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('19581','The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five — sudden victory | ShyBarbarian.com – Political Viewpoints','[...] MVP balloting, while Mazeroski received no votes. But, all things considered, Maz probably played just about as well as they did in 1960, and just about as well as Roberto [...]'); return false;">Quote</a></div> [...] MVP balloting, while Mazeroski received no votes. But, all things considered, Maz probably played just about as well as they did in 1960, and just about as well as Roberto [...]
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]]> By: Power Line - The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five -- sudden victory http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-19580 Power Line - The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five -- sudden victory Tue, 19 Oct 2010 04:54:17 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-19580 [...] MVP balloting, while Mazeroski received no votes. But, all things considered, Maz probably played just about as well as they did in 1960, and just about as well as Roberto [...]<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('19580','Power Line - The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five -- sudden victory'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('19580','Power Line - The most dramatic baseball game ever played, Part Five -- sudden victory','[...] MVP balloting, while Mazeroski received no votes. But, all things considered, Maz probably played just about as well as they did in 1960, and just about as well as Roberto [...]'); return false;">Quote</a></div> [...] MVP balloting, while Mazeroski received no votes. But, all things considered, Maz probably played just about as well as they did in 1960, and just about as well as Roberto [...]
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]]> By: Center Field Gate » Blog Archive » The “Other Hank” . . . and Ian http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-13168 Center Field Gate » Blog Archive » The “Other Hank” . . . and Ian Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:13:46 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-13168 [...] in the Hall of Fame, for Pirate’s fans it’s that Roberto Clemente wasn’t named the NL MVP in 1960. There’s an argument on the net about whether Tim Raines, one of baseball’s great on [...]
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]]> By: Robert Porter http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-5736 Robert Porter Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:48:03 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-5736 The 1960 Pittsburgh Pirates were an exciting group of never say die players that electrified a city with their grit and blue collar style. All of the '60 Bucs are embedded in my memory as my favorite Pirate team. Groat did deserve the MVP award that year, as did Hoak and a number of others. In 60 Clemente was a young blooming star who had not matured into the superstar and leader he eventual became. Roberto was an irreplaceable member of that World Championship squad but so were Skinner, Virdon, Law, Face, Haddix, Smith, and the others. My appreciation and awe of Clemente came in the '61 season when the true talent of the man started to become evident, dominating NL batting for the next 10 years. He was, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the '66 MVP when his leadership nearly led the weak pitching Pirates to a pennant. I feel truly privileged that I had the opportunity to see him play and for me, he was The Greatest.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5736','Robert Porter'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5736','Robert Porter','The 1960 Pittsburgh Pirates were an exciting group of never say die players that electrified a city with their grit and blue collar style. All of the \'60 Bucs are embedded in my memory as my favorite Pirate team. Groat did deserve the MVP award that year, as did Hoak and a number of others. In 60 Clemente was a young blooming star who had not matured into the superstar and leader he eventual became. Roberto was an irreplaceable member of that World Championship squad but so were Skinner, Virdon, Law, Face, Haddix, Smith, and the others. My appreciation and awe of Clemente came in the \'61 season when the true talent of the man started to become evident, dominating NL batting for the next 10 years. He was, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the \'66 MVP when his leadership nearly led the weak pitching Pirates to a pennant. I feel truly privileged that I had the opportunity to see him play and for me, he was The Greatest.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> The 1960 Pittsburgh Pirates were an exciting group of never say die players that electrified a city with their grit and blue collar style. All of the ’60 Bucs are embedded in my memory as my favorite Pirate team. Groat did deserve the MVP award that year, as did Hoak and a number of others. In 60 Clemente was a young blooming star who had not matured into the superstar and leader he eventual became. Roberto was an irreplaceable member of that World Championship squad but so were Skinner, Virdon, Law, Face, Haddix, Smith, and the others. My appreciation and awe of Clemente came in the ’61 season when the true talent of the man started to become evident, dominating NL batting for the next 10 years. He was, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the ’66 MVP when his leadership nearly led the weak pitching Pirates to a pennant. I feel truly privileged that I had the opportunity to see him play and for me, he was The Greatest.
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]]> By: Mike Lynch http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-4921 Mike Lynch Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:55:31 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-4921 Ivan, Thanks for taking time to read the article and leave your comments. You're absolutely right when you say I "never met the man;" I was only five when he died. Your statement, "I am sure the writer would use the same word [Acquiesce] on other Clemente achievements is incorrect, however. Though I never saw him play, I have a great deal of respect for Roberto Clemente and his accomplishments on and off the field. Clearly the writers felt he deserved the MVP award in 1966 and perhaps the word "acquiesce" was too harsh. And perhaps he brought so many intangibles to the table that he deserved the MVP award in 1960 as well. Since I didn't see him play it's impossible for me to know. My goal here was to look at the numbers and determine whether Clemente had a reason (statistically) to be so upset by the '60 MVP snub that he'd call it an "injustice" and refuse to wear his World Series ring. Statistically the answer is no, he didn't, at least based on Win Shares, which is just one of many ways in which to measure a player's contributions to his team. Again, I wasn't there (the 1960 season was played seven years before I was born), so I can't speak to Clemente's intangibles. My intent wasn't to understand Clemente's upbringing and culture, it was to analyze the numbers, and those aren't a figment of my imagination. Having said that, I'd be more than happy to learn more about Clemente and whether or not you feel he deserved the MVP award in 1960 or in '66 and why.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4921','Mike Lynch'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('4921','Mike Lynch','Ivan,\r\n\r\nThanks for taking time to read the article and leave your comments. You\'re absolutely right when you say I \"never met the man;\" I was only five when he died. Your statement, \"I am sure the writer would use the same word [Acquiesce] on other Clemente achievements is incorrect, however. Though I never saw him play, I have a great deal of respect for Roberto Clemente and his accomplishments on and off the field. Clearly the writers felt he deserved the MVP award in 1966 and perhaps the word \"acquiesce\" was too harsh. And perhaps he brought so many intangibles to the table that he deserved the MVP award in 1960 as well. Since I didn\'t see him play it\'s impossible for me to know.\r\n\r\nMy goal here was to look at the numbers and determine whether Clemente had a reason (statistically) to be so upset by the \'60 MVP snub that he\'d call it an \"injustice\" and refuse to wear his World Series ring. Statistically the answer is no, he didn\'t, at least based on Win Shares, which is just one of many ways in which to measure a player\'s contributions to his team. Again, I wasn\'t there (the 1960 season was played seven years before I was born), so I can\'t speak to Clemente\'s intangibles. \r\n\r\nMy intent wasn\'t to understand Clemente\'s upbringing and culture, it was to analyze the numbers, and those aren\'t a figment of my imagination.\r\n\r\nHaving said that, I\'d be more than happy to learn more about Clemente and whether or not you feel he deserved the MVP award in 1960 or in \'66 and why.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Ivan,

Thanks for taking time to read the article and leave your comments. You’re absolutely right when you say I “never met the man;” I was only five when he died. Your statement, “I am sure the writer would use the same word [Acquiesce] on other Clemente achievements is incorrect, however. Though I never saw him play, I have a great deal of respect for Roberto Clemente and his accomplishments on and off the field. Clearly the writers felt he deserved the MVP award in 1966 and perhaps the word “acquiesce” was too harsh. And perhaps he brought so many intangibles to the table that he deserved the MVP award in 1960 as well. Since I didn’t see him play it’s impossible for me to know.

My goal here was to look at the numbers and determine whether Clemente had a reason (statistically) to be so upset by the ’60 MVP snub that he’d call it an “injustice” and refuse to wear his World Series ring. Statistically the answer is no, he didn’t, at least based on Win Shares, which is just one of many ways in which to measure a player’s contributions to his team. Again, I wasn’t there (the 1960 season was played seven years before I was born), so I can’t speak to Clemente’s intangibles.

My intent wasn’t to understand Clemente’s upbringing and culture, it was to analyze the numbers, and those aren’t a figment of my imagination.

Having said that, I’d be more than happy to learn more about Clemente and whether or not you feel he deserved the MVP award in 1960 or in ’66 and why.

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]]> By: Ivan http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-4920 Ivan Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:53:52 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-4920 Clemente's story is being interpreted here by sheer numbers beind one man's eyes and imagination who in turn never met the man. Very few will ever understand the great persona and skills of Roberto. Most of the folks who once ridiculed him would serve history best if they took the time to understand Clemente's culture and his up-bringing and try to understand him. Clemente's biggest fall was not absorb/assume the American Culture of his era. It is hilarious how the article uses the word Acquiese when referring to Clemente winning the MVP in 66'. Given the source I'll let it be one man's opinion. I am sure the writer would use the same word on other Clemente Achievements. If baseball had at least 10% of players today that were slackers like Clemente, it would be worth watching. Yet most folks idolized the prima-donna players of today. I don't believe he lost the 60: MVP due to Racism, but also don't believe the 66' MVP was given to him to shut him up.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4920','Ivan'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('4920','Ivan','Clemente\'s story is being interpreted here by sheer numbers beind one man\'s eyes and imagination who in turn never met the man. Very few will ever understand the great persona and skills of Roberto. Most of the folks who once ridiculed him would serve history best if they took the time to understand Clemente\'s culture and his up-bringing and try to understand him. Clemente\'s biggest fall was not absorb\/assume the American Culture of his era. It is hilarious how the article uses the word Acquiese when referring to Clemente winning the MVP in 66\'. Given the source I\'ll let it be one man\'s opinion. I am sure the writer would use the same word on other Clemente Achievements. If baseball had at least 10% of players today that were slackers like Clemente, it would be worth watching. Yet most folks idolized the prima-donna players of today. I don\'t believe he lost the 60: MVP due to Racism, but also don\'t believe the 66\' MVP was given to him to shut him up.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Clemente’s story is being interpreted here by sheer numbers beind one man’s eyes and imagination who in turn never met the man. Very few will ever understand the great persona and skills of Roberto. Most of the folks who once ridiculed him would serve history best if they took the time to understand Clemente’s culture and his up-bringing and try to understand him. Clemente’s biggest fall was not absorb/assume the American Culture of his era. It is hilarious how the article uses the word Acquiese when referring to Clemente winning the MVP in 66′. Given the source I’ll let it be one man’s opinion. I am sure the writer would use the same word on other Clemente Achievements. If baseball had at least 10% of players today that were slackers like Clemente, it would be worth watching. Yet most folks idolized the prima-donna players of today. I don’t believe he lost the 60: MVP due to Racism, but also don’t believe the 66′ MVP was given to him to shut him up.
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]]> By: John Lease http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-1376 John Lease Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:25:44 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-1376 Clemente had a point when it came to the sportswriters. They weren't exactly impartial, to say the least. Racist? Not to the degree of burning crosses, but yeah, racist. It was a different time back then, that's for sure.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1376','John Lease'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1376','John Lease','Clemente had a point when it came to the sportswriters. They weren\'t exactly impartial, to say the least. Racist? Not to the degree of burning crosses, but yeah, racist. It was a different time back then, that\'s for sure.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Clemente had a point when it came to the sportswriters. They weren’t exactly impartial, to say the least. Racist? Not to the degree of burning crosses, but yeah, racist. It was a different time back then, that’s for sure.
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]]> By: vinnie http://seamheads.com/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/comment-page-1/#comment-1370 vinnie Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:17:18 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/04/24/was-clemente-really-slighted-by-mvp-voters-in-1960/#comment-1370 This points out exactly the problem with him at that time. Clemente wasn't seen as the dominant hitter he'd become, nor the humanitarian that his untimely death has emerged as his legacy. The Bobby Clemente of that day wss perceived as a rather surly, uncommunicative and bitter ball player who'd sit out for imaginary injuries and was less than a team player. These perceptions were believed and thought to be holding him back from reaching the potential that he'd shown brief glimpses of in previous seasons. And he was never thought of as being a franchise player. Looing back on his life and his career, we can more accurately judge the body of work but we shouldn't forget that along the way, there were many bumps in the road and many unpleasant stop overs. Clemente the legend and Clemente the whining slacker are both the same person.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('1370','vinnie'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('1370','vinnie','This points out exactly the problem with him at that time. Clemente wasn\'t seen as the dominant hitter he\'d become, nor the humanitarian that his untimely death has emerged as his legacy.\r\nThe Bobby Clemente of that day wss perceived as a rather surly, uncommunicative and bitter ball player who\'d sit out for imaginary injuries and was less than a team player. These perceptions were believed and thought to be holding him back from reaching the potential that he\'d shown brief glimpses of in previous seasons. And he was never thought of as being a franchise player.\r\nLooing back on his life and his career, we can more accurately judge the body of work but we shouldn\'t forget that along the way, there were many bumps in the road and many unpleasant stop overs. Clemente the legend and Clemente the whining slacker are both the same person.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> This points out exactly the problem with him at that time. Clemente wasn’t seen as the dominant hitter he’d become, nor the humanitarian that his untimely death has emerged as his legacy.
The Bobby Clemente of that day wss perceived as a rather surly, uncommunicative and bitter ball player who’d sit out for imaginary injuries and was less than a team player. These perceptions were believed and thought to be holding him back from reaching the potential that he’d shown brief glimpses of in previous seasons. And he was never thought of as being a franchise player.
Looing back on his life and his career, we can more accurately judge the body of work but we shouldn’t forget that along the way, there were many bumps in the road and many unpleasant stop overs. Clemente the legend and Clemente the whining slacker are both the same person.
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