Comments on: The 25 First Basemen With the Best Careers http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:40:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mike Lynch http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3537 Mike Lynch Mon, 15 Sep 2008 03:38:07 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3537 Vinnie, That'll be up to Dr. Hoban whether or not he wants to break them down that way. I like the idea, but it's still his call. Maybe after he posts all the lists, he'd be willing to break them down further.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3537','Mike Lynch'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3537','Mike Lynch','Vinnie,\r\n\r\nThat\'ll be up to Dr. Hoban whether or not he wants to break them down that way. I like the idea, but it\'s still his call. Maybe after he posts all the lists, he\'d be willing to break them down further.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Vinnie,

That’ll be up to Dr. Hoban whether or not he wants to break them down that way. I like the idea, but it’s still his call. Maybe after he posts all the lists, he’d be willing to break them down further.

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]]> By: vinnie http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3536 vinnie Mon, 15 Sep 2008 03:10:31 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3536 Mike, That would certainly spare us before we got around to assigning what and where to position Ernie Banks, Robin Yount and Craig Biggio, just to name the first three that pop to mind. Or, if it wasn't too much trouble, you could see who had the best individual seasons at the positon. Again, a twist on the Jameian peak and career value ranking.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3536','vinnie'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3536','vinnie','Mike,\r\n \r\nThat would certainly spare us before we got around to assigning what and where to position Ernie Banks, Robin Yount and Craig Biggio, just to name the first three that pop to mind.\r\n\r\nOr, if it wasn\'t too much trouble, you could see who had the best individual seasons at the positon. Again, a twist on the Jameian peak and career value ranking.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Mike,

That would certainly spare us before we got around to assigning what and where to position Ernie Banks, Robin Yount and Craig Biggio, just to name the first three that pop to mind.

Or, if it wasn’t too much trouble, you could see who had the best individual seasons at the positon. Again, a twist on the Jameian peak and career value ranking.

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]]> By: Mike Lynch http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3535 Mike Lynch Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:47:02 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3535 Vinnie, That's not a bad idea. I remember that Bill James had a list of multi-position stars in his original Historical Baseball Abstract. So in the case of guys like Killebrew and Rose, neither qualified at one specific position, but were ranked as a separate group instead.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3535','Mike Lynch'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3535','Mike Lynch','Vinnie,\r\n\r\nThat\'s not a bad idea. I remember that Bill James had a list of multi-position stars in his original Historical Baseball Abstract. So in the case of guys like Killebrew and Rose, neither qualified at one specific position, but were ranked as a separate group instead.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Vinnie,

That’s not a bad idea. I remember that Bill James had a list of multi-position stars in his original Historical Baseball Abstract. So in the case of guys like Killebrew and Rose, neither qualified at one specific position, but were ranked as a separate group instead.

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]]> By: vinnie http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3533 vinnie Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:29:21 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3533 Mike, I do understand what you're saying and attempting to do. The only thing I'm trying to point out is that by making the case for these multiple position first basemen, we do diminish in some cases the careers of those who spent their entire careers at that one position. Either way, I have no problem with what you're attempting to do. All I'm saying is that in the future you may want to consider making two lists; one that includes all who've played a significant number of games at first and for those who played the position exclusively.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3533','vinnie'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3533','vinnie','Mike,\r\n I do understand what you\'re saying and attempting to do. The only thing I\'m trying to point out is that by making the case for these multiple position first basemen, we do diminish in some cases the careers of those who spent their entire careers at that one position.\r\n Either way, I have no problem with what you\'re attempting to do. All I\'m saying is that in the future you may want to consider making two lists; one that includes all who\'ve played a significant number of games at first and for those who played the position exclusively.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Mike,
I do understand what you’re saying and attempting to do. The only thing I’m trying to point out is that by making the case for these multiple position first basemen, we do diminish in some cases the careers of those who spent their entire careers at that one position.
Either way, I have no problem with what you’re attempting to do. All I’m saying is that in the future you may want to consider making two lists; one that includes all who’ve played a significant number of games at first and for those who played the position exclusively.
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]]> By: BJStone http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3530 BJStone Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:25:02 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3530 Also not taken into account in this case (or, perhaps, "these" cases) is how many of those games were spent at 1st base late in a career? Killebrew's most productive offensive years, it could be argued, came during his younger years, and as a 3rd baseman. 1st base is a place where a good hitter oft times goes to extend his hitting career. Guy like Allen, Killebrew, or Rose were also valuable because of their ability to play multipe positions.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3530','BJStone'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3530','BJStone','Also not taken into account in this case (or, perhaps, \"these\" cases) is how many of those games were spent at 1st base late in a career? Killebrew\'s most productive offensive years, it could be argued, came during his younger years, and as a 3rd baseman. \r\n\r\n1st base is a place where a good hitter oft times goes to extend his hitting career. Guy like Allen, Killebrew, or Rose were also valuable because of their ability to play multipe positions.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Also not taken into account in this case (or, perhaps, “these” cases) is how many of those games were spent at 1st base late in a career? Killebrew’s most productive offensive years, it could be argued, came during his younger years, and as a 3rd baseman.

1st base is a place where a good hitter oft times goes to extend his hitting career. Guy like Allen, Killebrew, or Rose were also valuable because of their ability to play multipe positions.

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]]> By: Mike Hoban http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3529 Mike Hoban Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:15:43 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3529 Vinnie, I do not think I called anyone a "pure" first baseman. And I am not sure how this method "skews" the study. I have attempted to compare the careers of the players regardless of where each played. I suppose that we could create a category called "many position players" - but what would be the point? The NEWS score (career score) of these players would not change. Mike <div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3529','Mike Hoban'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3529','Mike Hoban','Vinnie,\r\n\r\nI do not think I called anyone a \"pure\" first baseman. And I am not sure how this method \"skews\" the study. I have attempted to compare the careers of the players regardless of where each played.\r\n\r\nI suppose that we could create a category called \"many position players\" - but what would be the point? The NEWS score (career score) of these players would not change.\r\n\r\nMike\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Vinnie,

I do not think I called anyone a “pure” first baseman. And I am not sure how this method “skews” the study. I have attempted to compare the careers of the players regardless of where each played.

I suppose that we could create a category called “many position players” – but what would be the point? The NEWS score (career score) of these players would not change.

Mike

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]]> By: vinnie http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3526 vinnie Sun, 14 Sep 2008 06:07:30 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3526 I know that's what he was thinking but let's take Harmon Killebrew. Sure, he played more games at first than any other position but more than half his total appearances were played at other positions. 1B* 969 3B* 791 OF* 470 DH 158 Games not counted in Overall Total below 2B* 11 Overall Total 2241 Same thing with Richie Allen 1B* 807 3B* 652 LF* 256 2B* 4 SS* 3 DH 3 CF 1 Overall Total 1722 How about Jim Thome? 1B*1101 DH 511 3B* 492 Overall Total 1593 Or what do we do with Pete Rose who played more games at first than Allen and only seven fewer than Killebrew? Why couldn't he also be able to quality? OF*1327 1B* 939 3B* 634 2B* 628 Overall Total 3528 My point is that guys like these or who play one or more full seasons at other positions can't be called a "pure" first baseman. Lumping all of them together tends to skew the study.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3526','vinnie'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3526','vinnie','I know that\'s what he was thinking but let\'s take Harmon Killebrew. Sure, he played more games at first than any other position but more than half his total appearances were played at other positions.\r\n 1B* 969 \r\n 3B* 791 \r\n OF* 470 \r\n DH 158 Games not counted in Overall Total below \r\n 2B* 11 \r\n \r\n Overall Total 2241 \r\n\r\nSame thing with Richie Allen\r\n1B* 807\r\n3B* 652\r\nLF* 256\r\n2B* 4\r\nSS* 3\r\nDH 3\r\nCF 1\r\nOverall Total 1722\r\n\r\nHow about Jim Thome?\r\n1B*1101\r\nDH 511\r\n3B* 492\r\nOverall Total 1593\r\n\r\nOr what do we do with Pete Rose who played more games at first than Allen and only seven fewer than Killebrew? Why couldn\'t he also be able to quality?\r\n\r\nOF*1327 \r\n1B* 939\r\n3B* 634\r\n2B* 628\r\nOverall Total 3528\r\n\r\nMy point is that guys like these or who play one or more full seasons at other positions can\'t be called a \"pure\" first baseman. Lumping all of them together tends to skew the study.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> I know that’s what he was thinking but let’s take Harmon Killebrew. Sure, he played more games at first than any other position but more than half his total appearances were played at other positions.
1B* 969
3B* 791
OF* 470
DH 158 Games not counted in Overall Total below
2B* 11

Overall Total 2241

Same thing with Richie Allen
1B* 807
3B* 652
LF* 256
2B* 4
SS* 3
DH 3
CF 1
Overall Total 1722

How about Jim Thome?
1B*1101
DH 511
3B* 492
Overall Total 1593

Or what do we do with Pete Rose who played more games at first than Allen and only seven fewer than Killebrew? Why couldn’t he also be able to quality?

OF*1327
1B* 939
3B* 634
2B* 628
Overall Total 3528

My point is that guys like these or who play one or more full seasons at other positions can’t be called a “pure” first baseman. Lumping all of them together tends to skew the study.

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]]> By: Mike Hoban http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3525 Mike Hoban Sun, 14 Sep 2008 04:17:36 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3525 Vinnie, The only logical way to determine what position a player should be identified with is to place him at that position where he played the most games during his career. So, for example, Alex Rodriguez will alway be a shortstop unless he plays more than 1272 games at another position. Mike<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3525','Mike Hoban'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3525','Mike Hoban','Vinnie,\r\n\r\nThe only logical way to determine what position a player should be identified with is to place him at that position where he played the most games during his career.\r\n\r\nSo, for example, Alex Rodriguez will alway be a shortstop unless he plays more than 1272 games at another position.\r\n\r\nMike'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Vinnie,

The only logical way to determine what position a player should be identified with is to place him at that position where he played the most games during his career.

So, for example, Alex Rodriguez will alway be a shortstop unless he plays more than 1272 games at another position.

Mike

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]]> By: Mike Hoban http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3524 Mike Hoban Sun, 14 Sep 2008 04:09:34 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3524 Morisseau, Frank Thomas ranks as the #32 position player of the century with a NEWS score of 326. Paul Molitor ranks as #44 with a score of 306. They are the only two DHs who surpass or come close to the benchmark of 280. Edgar Martinez has a NEWS score of 243. Mike<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3524','Mike Hoban'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3524','Mike Hoban','Morisseau,\r\n\r\nFrank Thomas ranks as the #32 position player of the century with a NEWS score of 326.\r\n\r\nPaul Molitor ranks as #44 with a score of 306.\r\n\r\nThey are the only two DHs who surpass or come close to the benchmark of 280.\r\n\r\nEdgar Martinez has a NEWS score of 243.\r\n\r\nMike'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Morisseau,

Frank Thomas ranks as the #32 position player of the century with a NEWS score of 326.

Paul Molitor ranks as #44 with a score of 306.

They are the only two DHs who surpass or come close to the benchmark of 280.

Edgar Martinez has a NEWS score of 243.

Mike

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]]> By: Mike Lynch http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3523 Mike Lynch Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:37:57 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3523 I don't want to speak for Mike about this, but I believe the criteria is whichever position a player played the most in his career qualifies him for that respective list. The players on the first base list played most of their games at first base.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3523','Mike Lynch'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3523','Mike Lynch','I don\'t want to speak for Mike about this, but I believe the criteria is whichever position a player played the most in his career qualifies him for that respective list. The players on the first base list played most of their games at first base.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> I don’t want to speak for Mike about this, but I believe the criteria is whichever position a player played the most in his career qualifies him for that respective list. The players on the first base list played most of their games at first base.
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]]> By: vinnie http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3522 vinnie Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:31:37 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3522 Maybe we can thin things out a bit if we remember that Allen, Killebrew, Cepeda, McCovey, Perez, Greenberg and Thome all played significant parts of their careers at other positions. What's the criteria or percentage of games as a first baseman do you use to qualify someone for the position? Or, why not throw out the games at third base and consider Mike Schmidt a first baseman too? Maybe a follow up using only the games at first might give us a whole new look?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3522','vinnie'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3522','vinnie','Maybe we can thin things out a bit if we remember that Allen, Killebrew, Cepeda, McCovey, Perez, Greenberg and Thome all played significant parts of their careers at other positions. \r\nWhat\'s the criteria or percentage of games as a first baseman do you use to qualify someone for the position? Or, why not throw out the games at third base and consider Mike Schmidt a first baseman too?\r\nMaybe a follow up using only the games at first might give us a whole new look?'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Maybe we can thin things out a bit if we remember that Allen, Killebrew, Cepeda, McCovey, Perez, Greenberg and Thome all played significant parts of their careers at other positions.
What’s the criteria or percentage of games as a first baseman do you use to qualify someone for the position? Or, why not throw out the games at third base and consider Mike Schmidt a first baseman too?
Maybe a follow up using only the games at first might give us a whole new look?
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]]> By: morisseau http://seamheads.com/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/comment-page-1/#comment-3520 morisseau Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:19:00 +0000 http://seamheads.com/blog/2008/09/12/the-25-first-basemen-with-the-best-careers/#comment-3520 Thomas + Molitor are the only 2? How does Edgar Martinez rank in your system?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3520','morisseau'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3520','morisseau','Thomas + Molitor are the only 2? How does Edgar Martinez rank in your system?'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Thomas + Molitor are the only 2? How does Edgar Martinez rank in your system?
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