{"id":721,"date":"2008-09-24T06:00:14","date_gmt":"2008-09-24T13:00:14","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/2008\/09\/24\/the-veterans-committee-nominees-after-1942-election\/"},"modified":"2008-09-24T06:00:35","modified_gmt":"2008-09-24T13:00:35","slug":"the-veterans-committee-nominees-after-1942-election","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/2008\/09\/24\/the-veterans-committee-nominees-after-1942-election\/","title":{"rendered":"The Veterans Committee Nominees: “After-1942 Election”"},"content":{"rendered":"

The Hall of Fame has announced the candidates for the Veterans Committee\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s \u00e2\u20ac\u0153After-1942 election.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0 Here is part of the press release.<\/em><\/p>\n

COOPERSTOWN, N.Y.<\/strong> \u00e2\u20ac\u201d Ten former Major League players, whose careers began in 1943 or later, will be considered for election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 2009 by the Veterans Committee, with results to be announced Dec. 8 at baseball’s Winter Meetings, it was announced today.<\/span><\/p>\n

Dick Allen<\/strong>, Gil Hodges<\/strong>, Jim Kaat<\/strong>, Tony Oliva<\/strong>, Al Oliver<\/strong>, Vada Pinson<\/strong>, Ron Santo<\/strong>, Luis Tiant<\/strong>, Joe Torre<\/strong> and Maury Wills<\/strong> will be considered for election by the Veterans Committee for enshrinement in 2009, with votes to be cast by Hall of Fame members this fall. Any candidate to receive 75 percent of the vote among all ballots cast will earn election to the Hall of Fame and will be enshrined on July 26, 2009. There are 64 living Hall of Famers.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

In this group, only Dick Allen<\/strong> and Ron Santo<\/strong> have obvious Hall of Fame numbers according to the NEWS HOF Gauge and deserve to be elected on the basis of what they achieved on the playing field<\/em>.\u00c2\u00a0 Of course, there are those fans who believe that other considerations should come into play as well.\u00c2\u00a0 And the managerial careers of Joe Torre and Gil Hodges are often mentioned in this context.<\/p>\n

The Position Players<\/strong><\/p>\n

Dick Allen<\/strong> has by far the best numbers of any 20th century position player who has been eligible but has not been elected to the Hall.\u00c2\u00a0 His career numbers are the 36th best of all position players in the century.\u00c2\u00a0 Look at the players who surround him on the NEWS list. The first number (CWS) is career win shares, the second (CV) is the sum of win shares for the ten best seasons and the third is their NEWS score (career score).\u00c2\u00a0 The number before the player\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s name is his rank compared to all position players of the 20th century.
\nOf course, McCovey, Murray, Ripken and Yount are all in the Hall of Fame.\u00c2\u00a0 You will note that Allen\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s CV (his win shares in his ten best seasons) is better than any of the others.\u00c2\u00a0 (Only thirty 20th century position players have a CV greater than 300.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
 <\/td>\nPlayer<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCV<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nNEWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
35.<\/strong><\/td>\nWillie McCovey<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n408<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n285<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n316<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
36.<\/em><\/td>\nDick Allen<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		342<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n304<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n314<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
37.<\/strong><\/td>\nEddie Murray<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		437<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n273<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n314<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
38.<\/strong><\/td>\nCal Ripken Jr.<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n427<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n276<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n314<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
39.<\/strong><\/td>\nRobin Yount<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		423<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n278<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n314<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

All serious fans are familiar with the \u00e2\u20ac\u0153bad attitude\u00e2\u20ac\u009d rap that surrounds Allen.\u00c2\u00a0 And there is no denying that he had his problems in this regard.\u00c2\u00a0 But I believe that it is time for this outstanding player to be inducted into the Hall of Fame regardless of any such opinions.\u00c2\u00a0 After all, it is not the Hall of Saints.<\/p>\n

Ron Santo<\/strong> had the 5th best career among third basemen in the 20th century.\u00c2\u00a0 Only Mike Schmidt, Eddie Mathews, George Brett and Wade Boggs (in that order) had better careers at third.\u00c2\u00a0 The NEWS HOF Gauge has Santo ranked #71 of all position players of the century.\u00c2\u00a0 Here are a few players ranked near him on the list.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
 <\/td>\nPlayer<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCV<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nNEWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
69.<\/strong><\/td>\nRod Carew<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n384<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n257<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n289<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
70.<\/strong><\/td>\nHarry Heilmann<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		356<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n267<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n289<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
71.<\/em><\/td>\nRon Santo<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		324<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n275<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n287<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
72.<\/td>\nBill Dahlen<\/font><\/td>\n394<\/font><\/td>\n250<\/font><\/td>\n286<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
73.<\/strong><\/td>\nGoose Goslin<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		355<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n263<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n286<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

Carew, Heilmann and Goslin are in the Hall and Bill Dahlen is on the \u00e2\u20ac\u0153Pre-1943 list\u00e2\u20ac\u009d for consideration.\u00c2\u00a0 All five of the players on this list have HOF numbers and deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.<\/p>\n

What of the other six position players on the \u00e2\u20ac\u0153After-1942\u00e2\u20ac\u009d Veterans Committee list: Gil Hodges<\/strong>, Tony Oliva<\/strong>, Al Oliver<\/strong>, Vada Pinson<\/strong>, Joe Torre<\/strong> and Maury Wills<\/strong>?\u00c2\u00a0 None of these players achieved HOF numbers on the playing field according to the NEWS Gauge.<\/em><\/p>\n

Here are the NEWS scores for these six players (in italics).\u00c2\u00a0 I have also included the scores of some other players for comparison purposes.\u00c2\u00a0 Those players already in the Hall of Fame are in bold type<\/strong>.\u00c2\u00a0 (None of the players on this list have HOF numbers.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
Player<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCV<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nNEWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Vada Pinson <\/font><\/em><\/td>\n321<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n252<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n269<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Dave Parker<\/font><\/td>\n327<\/font><\/td>\n248<\/font><\/td>\n268<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Orlando Cepeda<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		310<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n251<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n266<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Enos Slaughter<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		323<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		246<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n265<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Minnie Minoso <\/font><\/td>\n283<\/font><\/td>\n258<\/font><\/td>\n264<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Joe Torre<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n315<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n244<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n262<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Andre Dawson<\/font><\/td>\n340<\/font><\/td>\n234<\/font><\/td>\n261<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Alan Trammell<\/font><\/td>\n318<\/font><\/td>\n238<\/font><\/td>\n258<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
George Sisler<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n292<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n239<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n252<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Jimmy Collins<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		274<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n242<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n250<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Heinie Manush<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		285<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n236<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n248<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Ken Boyer<\/font><\/td>\n279<\/font><\/td>\n235<\/font><\/td>\n246<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Jim Rice<\/font><\/td>\n282<\/font><\/td>\n233<\/font><\/td>\n245<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Al Oliver<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		305<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		222<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n243<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Bobby Doerr<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		281<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n223<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n238<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Tony Oliva<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		245<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n234<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n237<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Joe Gordon<\/font><\/td>\n242<\/font><\/td>\n233<\/font><\/td>\n235<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Gil Hodges<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		263<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n221<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n232<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Steve Garvey<\/font><\/td>\n279<\/font><\/td>\n215<\/font><\/td>\n231<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Maury Wills<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		253<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n218<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n227<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Phil Rizzuto<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		231<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n218<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n221<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Luis Aparicio<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		293<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n193<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n218<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Roger Maris<\/font><\/td>\n223<\/font><\/td>\n209<\/font><\/td>\n213<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

A few questions\/comments:<\/p>\n

1.\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0 Why is Minnie Minoso not on the list of finalists?\u00c2\u00a0 His numbers are better than any of these finalists other than Vada Pinson.
\n2.\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0 Joe Torre, if considered to be a catcher (where he played the greatest number of games), may be the most deserving of these six players \u00e2\u20ac\u201c based on his playing numbers alone.
\n3.\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0 Would you vote for Maury Wills for the Hall of Fame when Alan Trammell is not there yet?
\n4.\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0 Look where Jim Rice is on this partial list.\u00c2\u00a0 And he is about to be elected by the BBWAA?\u00c2\u00a0 How could anyone possibly vote for him ahead of Dave Parker or Andre Dawson?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Let us hope that Dick Allen<\/strong> and Ron Santo<\/strong> will be elected to the Hall of Fame and finally get the recognition that they have earned.<\/p>\n

The Pitchers<\/strong><\/p>\n

What about the pitchers?\u00c2\u00a0 There are only two pitchers among the ten players on the Veterans Committee list: Jim Kaat<\/strong> and Luis Tiant<\/strong>.\u00c2\u00a0 And, unfortunately, neither pitcher has numbers meriting serious consideration for the Hall of Fame.<\/p>\n

A NEWS score of 235 is considered necessary for a starting pitcher to have obvious HOF numbers.\u00c2\u00a0 Only 35 pitchers in the 20th century have achieved that score and most are in the Hall of Fame.\u00c2\u00a0 Bert Blyleven<\/strong> and Carl Mays<\/strong> are two of those pitchers who have achieved that score but are not yet in the Hall.<\/p>\n

Here is a short list of pitchers who are comparable to Luis Tiant and Jim Kaat.\u00c2\u00a0 A few are recent players and two (bold type) are in the Hall of Fame.\u00c2\u00a0 (Scores at the end of 2007.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
Player<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nCV<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\nNEWS<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Urban Shocker<\/font><\/td>\n225<\/font><\/td>\n210<\/font><\/td>\n214<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Luis Tiant<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		256<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n198<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n213<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
John Smoltz<\/font><\/td>\n288<\/font><\/td>\n185<\/font><\/td>\n211<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Dolf Luque<\/font><\/td>\n241<\/font><\/td>\n199<\/font><\/td>\n210<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Jack Chesbro<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		209<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n209<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n209<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Waite Hoyt<\/font>
\n<\/strong><\/td>\n		262<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n189<\/strong><\/font><\/td>\n207<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Billy Pierce<\/font><\/td>\n248<\/font><\/td>\n193<\/font><\/td>\n207<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Curt Schilling<\/font><\/td>\n252<\/font><\/td>\n191<\/font><\/td>\n206<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Dizzy Trout<\/font><\/td>\n228<\/font><\/td>\n199<\/font><\/td>\n206<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Kevin Brown<\/font><\/td>\n241<\/font><\/td>\n193<\/font><\/td>\n205<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Jim Kaat<\/font>
\n<\/em><\/td>\n		268<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n181<\/em><\/font><\/td>\n203<\/font><\/em><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Bobo Newsom<\/font><\/td>\n237<\/font><\/td>\n191<\/font><\/td>\n203<\/font><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

None of these pitchers has HOF numbers. If John Smoltz reaches 300 CWS (which it seems he will), then he deserves serious consideration \u00e2\u20ac\u201c primarily because he spent a number of seasons in relief.<\/p>\n

There is one other interesting fact here. The NEWS HOF Gauge contends that among retired starting pitchers whose careers began after 1942, only Bert Blyleven<\/strong> and Roger Clemens<\/strong> have obvious HOF numbers and are not yet in the Hall of Fame.<\/p>\n

For more information on the NEWS <\/st1>HOF<\/st1> Gauge, see BASEBALL\u00e2\u20ac\u2122S BEST: The TRUE Hall of Famers<\/a> <\/strong>on this site.<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The Hall of Fame has announced the candidates for the Veterans Committee\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s \u00e2\u20ac\u0153After-1942 election.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d\u00c2\u00a0\u00c2\u00a0 Here is part of the press release.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":18,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[19],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-721","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-prof-hobans-hall-of-fame-blog"],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/721","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/18"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=721"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/721\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=721"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=721"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/seamheads.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=721"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}